Rules misinterpretations we have seen
Wed, 07/22/2009 - 12:22 — Dave
I think most of you will agree that I seem to be cursed with running into opponents who don't actually know the rules for their own armies. These rules misinterpretations, or "misinterpretations", are annoying and generally fall in favor of the person misinterpreting them, so I thought I would list a few of the ones that stick in my mind the most and invite you all to list yours as well. Here are a few.
- Early 2003 - A novice player named Dave Inman misreads his rules for Ratling Guns and plays them as capable of move and fire.
- SAWS (2003? My first SAWS)- Wood Elf player claims his War Dancers have three attacks each and get four with the extra attack dance. This is based on the description of the war dancer weapons that says they are paired, but explicitly states that is reflected in the stat line. He claims everyone from his group plays it that way. I don't find out until after the game, and that unit raped me.
- QCR 2008 - Skaven Eshin list player claims his tunneling team can charge after getting the misfire result that results in me placing his unit in front of my chariot. If there is one list I know it's Skaven, and after I call him on it I get to use that unit as a speed bump to accelerate into the bulk of his army. The rules state that under that result the team cannot move at all.
- QCR 2009 - Daemon player claims Flamers count as thrown weapons and therefore do not pay the -1 penalty for move-and-shoot. I found out he was incorrect but not until turn 5.
I'll add more as they come to me.
Comments
Pit of Shades on Stegs?
This iones been contriversal and I still havent found "the" answer to it...but Pit of Shades on stegs has become a very popular (supposed) way of dealing with Stegzilla lists, particularly EOTG'S--But its not as good as people think==First, since the pit (i.e. small template) doesnt cover the entire base, the steg model gets a 4+ save to see if it is even hit at all (many for get this!) Second, you dont use the stegs Intiative when rolling for the test (I2 which is what makes people like it so much)....as per the BRB faq, you use the intitiative of the rider. Skinks have an I of 4.
What say you oh wise LD2 guys???
No Concrete Answer
After much internal debate, LD2's got no 100% answer... we don't think there is one. There are several arguments, all of which, due to poor wording on GW's part, can be considered correct, and which of course say totally different things. Here are the 2 most popular ones:
1) As per the rules for template weapons/spells and monster/rider models described on pg. 61 of the main rulebook, the monster + ALL riders are hit if the model is fully covered, or all are partially hit (ie, rolling a partial for the monster and each rider individually, NOT 1 partial roll for all of them and hitting all or nothing) if the model is partially covered (as in the case of a Steg and Pit of Shades). Further, if the monster/rider model is under the center hole, everything (monster and all Riders) are automatically hit, regardless of being fully covered or not. NOTE*** this does not apply directly to your question, because following the exact wording of the book and spell description, Pit of Shades isn't a weapon template with a center hole 2X strength characteristic... so this is only pertinent for things like Stone Throwers, Mortars etc.
The FAQ makes it quite clear, the Steg gets to use the Skink's Initiative. Insulting, I know, but true... You can try to dance around it with fancy semantics as some do online, but it's obvious what the intent was... however silly.
So in the case of Pit of Shades + Steg: The model is partially covered, so you roll partials for the Steg + EACH rider individually, and any 4+ result calls for an initiative test, using the highest characteristic value on the model (a 4 for a normal Skink or Skink Priest, a 5 if a Skink Chief is involved). This gives you only about a 16.5% chance (0.5 for the partial hit X 0.33 for the initiative 4 test) of gacking an Engine of the Gods, and/or another 16.5% chance of slaying the Priest Riding it... about 1/6 for each. Not great Odds.
2) A Monster/Rider model is just that, a single model. This is laid out very clearly on pg. 59 of the main rule book, as well as in several FAQs and also in the Psychology and Mounts section of the BRB. This, coupled with a strict reading of the Pit of Shades spell, lets one argue there is only a single Initiative test for the whole model. Not for the reason many people discussing this same question online seem to think, though. The rules on pg. 61 involving template spells and monster/rider models are very clear, and still hold. You determine hits as described there (rolling a partial for the monster and each rider). However, by strict interpretation of Pit of Shades, multiple hits don't matter. Pit of Shades says "each model that is hit takes an initiative test"... failure means you remove the model. Since the Engine of the Gods + all it's riders are a single model, and Pit of Shades says a hit model takes an initiative test, the number of times a model is hit doesn't matter. A model that's hit once = a hit model. A model that's hit 20 times is still a hit model. Pit of Shades doesn't read something along the lines of "take an initiative test for each hit". Again, poor wording, but it means even if you hit 3 Skinks and the Stegadon with your partial hit rolls, only 1 initiative test is taken, resulting in a removed model (Steg, Skinks, Priest and all) 16.5% of the time.
I believe in a game situation, you have to make allowances for common sense. As such, most people will play it as #1 above, and most tournament judges will rule this way if asked. However, the question highlights a weakness in the rules which simply won't have a clear cut answer until GW fixes it (like so many others).
Either way though, not a very efficient way of dealing with an EotGs.
Derek
Thanks for that TresChic, it
Thanks for that TresChic, it goes a long way in clearing up the questions....GW has to clear up the rest.
Single model
Derek will probably jump in and argue, but here is what the FAQ says:
Q. Occasionally, a model with multiple parts that have different Characteristics, such as a cavalry model, a Character riding a Monster or a Chariot, will have to take a Characteristic test (like an Initiative test for a Pit of Shades spell). If the model has multiple values for the Characteristic to be tested, which one is used?
A. Unless differently specified, use the best value, in other words the value that makes it more likely to pass the test.
I'd play it as you get the 4+ save (doesn't cover the entire base) AND then use the Skinks save. Pretty darn good all in all... of course if you fail then the entire model goes bye bye. Same for Chariots and Dragons with characters on them. Skaven have some big new single models too right? Hmm...
Know the Steam Tank rules
Nearly every Empire army seems to field one (ask Ed). These rules are unique and it seems that half the players I come up against "mis-interpts" them. Ran across it at BoB. I was winning and decided to let it go. Let the next opponenent deal with and maintain my good sports score :)
Here's an awesome rules snafu
In Derek's table 1 game w/ Jordan Braun at BoB there was a very interesting rule pointed for all you spear players. The rule regarding maximizing models on a charge specifies that a charger must be aligned so as to "maximize the number of models in combat" as opposed to contact. This means that spear units get to count the models in the 2nd (sometimes 3rd) rank for this purpose.
Therefore, when a mounted character is put inside spear infantry and on the flank, any unit not wide enough to touch the entire front rank of the spear unit and wishing to charge must align out of base contact with the mounted character.
Specifically to Derek's situation, his Varghulf charged a unit of DE spearmen containing a BSB (who was on the far side of the unit). Derek wished to kill the BSB, but since the Varghulf is only 50mm wide and had to maximize the number of models in combat, he had no choice but to align solely against spearelves, resulting in a very bad combat res'ing for Derek.
Except that's probably a bad
Except that's probably a bad interpretation. Weapon choices aren't made until after the charging model has already made contact. It was entirely possible for the elf player to choose hand weapon and shield, in which case there's no 2nd rank fighting, but since that doesn't happen until the varghulf has already made contact, whether or not there MIGHT be 2nd rank models in combat is irrelevant to varghulf placement.
Buildings too
Buildings seem to come up a lot in my tournament games. Neither I, nor most of my opponents play with them much outside of tournament scenarios, so we are both looking at the book trying to figure out how it is supposed to be done.
Needless to say, folks who are familiar with the building rules have a huge advantage in the ensuing fights if they play their cards right.
(Mental note: read that section before every tournament.)