Storm Banner: Death of the Shadestar... and other news
Tue, 10/13/2009 - 11:42 — TresChic
I got a chance to thumb through the Skaven book over the weekend. IMO, a terribly hard list. Just as abusive, if not more so than VC, DE and perhaps even Daemons. I'll get into a little more detail regarding my impressions in a moment, but this first bit hit me the hardest:
Banner of the Storm: IMO, easily the most offensive item in modern Warhammer. Step aside Ring of Hotek. Drakenhof Banner’s old news. This thing is by far the most game altering item this little game geek has ever seen! 50 points (so just about anybody and their mom can take it... Storm Vermin, Plague Priests). Can be activated at the start of any turn. On a 4+, it stays active for the next player's turn. When active, it completely prevents flying movement, imposes a -2 to hit on all BS dependant shooting, and makes non-magical shooting that doesn't use BS (cannons, stone throwers, doom divers etc) require a 4+ to use at all. This item is simply broken, and I have to assume it was an act of gross negligence on some editor's part (if they even have those...) that "One Use Only" got left off the final print. As written, it certainly can be used over and over again. This means that on average, as a person looking across the board at the Storm Banner, you only have a 25% chance of having a shooting phase and flying on turns 2-6 (0% of the time on turn 1!)... AND, if yer lucky, you get to fly and shoot at most three times in a game, a la the following scenario.
Say you go first:
1a) Skaven player, hence forth referred to as Lord of the Anal Douche (LOTAD) activates Storm Banner on your turn 1. Your Flying and shooting is totally fucked.
1b) LOTAD rolls a 4+ at the start of his turn 1 and the effect continues. This does very little to the Skaven, as they have no flyers and little BS based shooting (really only Jezzails and Ratling Guns, which aren't going to be the favored weapon team anyway... more on that later). Additionally, all of their considerable non-BS based shooting is magical, and completely unaffected by the Banner.
2a) LOTAD rolls a 1-3 on the start of your turn, ending the effect. Hurray! You get to fly and shoot. Finally!
2b) LOTAD takes his turn 2 as normal.
3a) LOTAD activates the Banner on your turn 3, eliminating your flying and shooting phase again.
3b) LOTAD rolls a 4+ at the start of his turn 3. The Storm continues, not doing anything of significance to his shooting and movement phase regardless.
4a) LOTAD rolls a 1-3, ending the effect, and letting you shoot and fly for the second time this game on turn 4.
4b) LOTAD takes his turn 4 as normal.
5a) LOTAD activates the banner again on your turn 5. No flying or shooting for you...
5b) LOTAD rolls a 4+ on his turn 5. The Storm continues but again, doesn't hinder him much.
6a) LOTAD rolls a 1-3 on your turn 6. Hurray for shooting and flying take III!
Again, this is an optimal scenario. There's only about a 1.5% chance (no shit!) of it working out this well for you. In all likelihood, you'll only get clear skies once in a game, or twice if yer lucky. This is magnified by the fact that these unmolested turns will likely come relatively late in the game, ie well after his tunneling teams have gacked your shooting anyway! In summation, the Storm Banner single handedly cripples just about any enemy shooting phase and bitch slaps many a movement phase. Really, it’s only another Skaven army and perhaps a Rune heavy Dwarven throng that remain relatively unaffected (and even then, only the runed artillery). Our one consolation is that it also completely neuters the Shadestar!
The Hellpit Abomination is truly and utterly broken is every possible way. By far the most absurdly powerful and grossly underpriced monster GW's ever made, bar none (including the Star Dragon, Engine of the Gods, Hydra... even the Steam Tank I think!) This thing does everything: impact hits, regenerates, eats characters, lays waste to entire ranked up units via massive numbers of S6 attacks. Even worse IMO is it’s movemet… the thing doesn’t care about line of sight! It moves 3D6” in ANY direction just like some kind of super fast spawn. Many opponents will have 2, and they will single handedly win many, many games. Even if you had the MASSIVE amount of shooting it takes to bring one down, you won't get a chance to use it. See Storm Banner above... Even then, if you somehow manage to slay it, 67% of the time it either creates a bunch of Rat Swarms or comes back to life entirely! For crying out loud!
Weapon Teams: Ratling Guns are yesterday's news. They have to roll to hit now, though they have no range penalty to shoot, which makes them balanced. Why play fair though, when all the other shit is so much better? The Warpfire Thrower is crazy good. Almost all of the Skaven template weapons (and there are MANY) don't mess around with that partial hit nonsense anymore. If a model is touched by the template at all, it's hit, which increases the number of models affected by nearly 2X in many situations. The Warpfire Thrower is still S5, -3AS and D3 wounds (making it good at slaying infantry and monsters alike) has a 4+ ward and 5+ AS (which all weapon teams now have), and causes panic in any unit it inflicts even a single casualty on. Plus, it can now stand and shoot? Fuck! There's a combat oriented team called a Thing Mangler or some such which is pretty decent too, and will see a lot of play. It causes 1D3 impact hits on a charge and an artillery die worth of automatic S4 hits in combat at initiative 4... so it's pretty much an old school ratling gun (the kind that didn't need to roll to hit) for the close combat phase. Great...
Tunneling Teams: This is another one were I just don't know what GW was thinking. For 200 points (in a Core selection, no less!) you get a fully ranked up unit of infantry with a butt load of attacks (11 S3 and 1D3 S4 autohits) that can charge into the flank or rear of your shit before you even get a chance to turn around and face them, as early as turn 2! WHAT THE FUCK?! Dave didn't really take advantage of this broken mechanic in the game I saw him play yesterday. I suspect he will in the future. It's close behind the Abomination in sheer absurdity. Taken in sufficient quantity, it will automatically beat some armies, and cripple most others.
Screaming Bell/Plague Cauldrons. This is strike 3 as far as I'm concerned. These things, beyond being insanely good, are ludicrously under priced. The Bell costs 200 points, the Cauldron 150 points. They displace and in every way count as 15 infantry models. This means that even if they're displacing Clanrats or Plague Monks, they effectively cost 67.5 or 105 points less respectively. This means they actually cost 132.5 points for the Bell, and 45 points for the Cauldron! For this, you get a nigh unslayable T6, 6 wound, 4+ WS thing, that makes a huge unit of Rats unbreakable, gives a 4+ ward save to the character riding them, AND has spectacular magical effects which completely ignore enemy dispel dice and scrolls... ummm... really? And you can play BOTH in one army? Beyond that, you could have FOUR Cauldrons if you wanted??
Banner of the Storm: IMO, easily the most offensive item in modern Warhammer. Step aside Ring of Hotek. Drakenhof Banner’s old news. This thing is by far the most game altering item this little game geek has ever seen! 50 points (so just about anybody and their mom can take it... Storm Vermin, Plague Priests). Can be activated at the start of any turn. On a 4+, it stays active for the next player's turn. When active, it completely prevents flying movement, imposes a -2 to hit on all BS dependant shooting, and makes non-magical shooting that doesn't use BS (cannons, stone throwers, doom divers etc) require a 4+ to use at all. This item is simply broken, and I have to assume it was an act of gross negligence on some editor's part (if they even have those...) that "One Use Only" got left off the final print. As written, it certainly can be used over and over again. This means that on average, as a person looking across the board at the Storm Banner, you only have a 25% chance of having a shooting phase and flying on turns 2-6 (0% of the time on turn 1!)... AND, if yer lucky, you get to fly and shoot at most three times in a game, a la the following scenario.
Say you go first:
1a) Skaven player, hence forth referred to as Lord of the Anal Douche (LOTAD) activates Storm Banner on your turn 1. Your Flying and shooting is totally fucked.
1b) LOTAD rolls a 4+ at the start of his turn 1 and the effect continues. This does very little to the Skaven, as they have no flyers and little BS based shooting (really only Jezzails and Ratling Guns, which aren't going to be the favored weapon team anyway... more on that later). Additionally, all of their considerable non-BS based shooting is magical, and completely unaffected by the Banner.
2a) LOTAD rolls a 1-3 on the start of your turn, ending the effect. Hurray! You get to fly and shoot. Finally!
2b) LOTAD takes his turn 2 as normal.
3a) LOTAD activates the Banner on your turn 3, eliminating your flying and shooting phase again.
3b) LOTAD rolls a 4+ at the start of his turn 3. The Storm continues, not doing anything of significance to his shooting and movement phase regardless.
4a) LOTAD rolls a 1-3, ending the effect, and letting you shoot and fly for the second time this game on turn 4.
4b) LOTAD takes his turn 4 as normal.
5a) LOTAD activates the banner again on your turn 5. No flying or shooting for you...
5b) LOTAD rolls a 4+ on his turn 5. The Storm continues but again, doesn't hinder him much.
6a) LOTAD rolls a 1-3 on your turn 6. Hurray for shooting and flying take III!
Again, this is an optimal scenario. There's only about a 1.5% chance (no shit!) of it working out this well for you. In all likelihood, you'll only get clear skies once in a game, or twice if yer lucky. This is magnified by the fact that these unmolested turns will likely come relatively late in the game, ie well after his tunneling teams have gacked your shooting anyway! In summation, the Storm Banner single handedly cripples just about any enemy shooting phase and bitch slaps many a movement phase. Really, it’s only another Skaven army and perhaps a Rune heavy Dwarven throng that remain relatively unaffected (and even then, only the runed artillery). Our one consolation is that it also completely neuters the Shadestar!
The Hellpit Abomination is truly and utterly broken is every possible way. By far the most absurdly powerful and grossly underpriced monster GW's ever made, bar none (including the Star Dragon, Engine of the Gods, Hydra... even the Steam Tank I think!) This thing does everything: impact hits, regenerates, eats characters, lays waste to entire ranked up units via massive numbers of S6 attacks. Even worse IMO is it’s movemet… the thing doesn’t care about line of sight! It moves 3D6” in ANY direction just like some kind of super fast spawn. Many opponents will have 2, and they will single handedly win many, many games. Even if you had the MASSIVE amount of shooting it takes to bring one down, you won't get a chance to use it. See Storm Banner above... Even then, if you somehow manage to slay it, 67% of the time it either creates a bunch of Rat Swarms or comes back to life entirely! For crying out loud!
Weapon Teams: Ratling Guns are yesterday's news. They have to roll to hit now, though they have no range penalty to shoot, which makes them balanced. Why play fair though, when all the other shit is so much better? The Warpfire Thrower is crazy good. Almost all of the Skaven template weapons (and there are MANY) don't mess around with that partial hit nonsense anymore. If a model is touched by the template at all, it's hit, which increases the number of models affected by nearly 2X in many situations. The Warpfire Thrower is still S5, -3AS and D3 wounds (making it good at slaying infantry and monsters alike) has a 4+ ward and 5+ AS (which all weapon teams now have), and causes panic in any unit it inflicts even a single casualty on. Plus, it can now stand and shoot? Fuck! There's a combat oriented team called a Thing Mangler or some such which is pretty decent too, and will see a lot of play. It causes 1D3 impact hits on a charge and an artillery die worth of automatic S4 hits in combat at initiative 4... so it's pretty much an old school ratling gun (the kind that didn't need to roll to hit) for the close combat phase. Great...
Tunneling Teams: This is another one were I just don't know what GW was thinking. For 200 points (in a Core selection, no less!) you get a fully ranked up unit of infantry with a butt load of attacks (11 S3 and 1D3 S4 autohits) that can charge into the flank or rear of your shit before you even get a chance to turn around and face them, as early as turn 2! WHAT THE FUCK?! Dave didn't really take advantage of this broken mechanic in the game I saw him play yesterday. I suspect he will in the future. It's close behind the Abomination in sheer absurdity. Taken in sufficient quantity, it will automatically beat some armies, and cripple most others.
Screaming Bell/Plague Cauldrons. This is strike 3 as far as I'm concerned. These things, beyond being insanely good, are ludicrously under priced. The Bell costs 200 points, the Cauldron 150 points. They displace and in every way count as 15 infantry models. This means that even if they're displacing Clanrats or Plague Monks, they effectively cost 67.5 or 105 points less respectively. This means they actually cost 132.5 points for the Bell, and 45 points for the Cauldron! For this, you get a nigh unslayable T6, 6 wound, 4+ WS thing, that makes a huge unit of Rats unbreakable, gives a 4+ ward save to the character riding them, AND has spectacular magical effects which completely ignore enemy dispel dice and scrolls... ummm... really? And you can play BOTH in one army? Beyond that, you could have FOUR Cauldrons if you wanted??
Doom Wheel: I have mixed feeling here. Super awesome looking model. However, the rules are HORRIBLY written (seriously, a monkey could do better). It's a rare slot, so I don't think you'll often see them played... really, why play anything other than an Abomination with your rare points? The confusing rules involve it's shooting. Well, less confusing really than simple lack of rules! The "Warp Lightning" effect tells you how to determine the strength, but NOT the number of hits. It says it's "Warp Lightning". Does this mean it's as per the spell (1D6) or as the Cannon (line template followed by a 3" explosion)? Both of these options seem vastly overpowered, as they happen 3 times every round... would GW really make a model that acts like 3 Warp Lightning Cannons and or 3 sucessfully cast (good!) spells every round? As written, it could be interpreted such that it inflicts a single hit, 3 times a round, since it doesn't actually say anything about multiple hits in the description. This feels balanced, but again, very unclear/murky writing!
Skaven magic is also MUCH better than it used to be. And that's saying something. Never mind the fact that a Gray Seer has the same LD as a Warlord... silly! You can have a gross magic phase and LD10...
I'm frightened!
Derek
Skaven magic is also MUCH better than it used to be. And that's saying something. Never mind the fact that a Gray Seer has the same LD as a Warlord... silly! You can have a gross magic phase and LD10...
I'm frightened!
Derek
Comments
My Interpretations of the Rules
Hey all, I'm a long time skaven player and I had a very different interpretaion of these rules and my conclusions were quite different (I also looked at the new book).
Firstly, I beleive that the storm banner says something along the lines of "Roll a dice at the start of every player's turn. On a 1-3 the banner burns out (runs out of power, something along those lines)." I beleive several magic items in the game work like this and it is assumed that once they burn out they cannot be "re-lit", per-se. In my mind, the storm banner is only really ever going to last for one of your oponents turns, barring good rolling. I'd have to look at the book again, I suppose. In the old book, it does not (I don't have the book in front of me atm, but I'm pretty sure) say "one use only", it simply "burns out". What do you think?
Hellpit abomination: Broken. I agree completly. Luckily, we have a solution for this in casual play: don't play anybody overtly duchey enough to run two of them. In tournement play, we can always kick them inna nutz.
In the old book, a strength 7 hit auto destroys the bell (after the ward save). Somehow, I left reading the new rules under the same impression. Is this not the case?
I think the doom wheel rules imply that it fires three "bolts" of warplightning at artillery die strength. That is to say, it fires 3 shots. I think it may get some use because it does not use chariot rules (stength 7's don't auto kill it).
Skaven magic is better, yes, but it is also better balanced. I don't think it's over the top (the 25+ spell is just nonesense, however) becasue at least they stoped every warlock from dishing out 2d6 strength 5 shots AND improving the rest of the spells!
The Storm Banner,
The Storm Banner, unfortunately, doesn't say it "burns out" on a 1-3, as many bound items do for example, or as the old version of the banner did... just that the various effects end. As written, there's nothing to prevent repeated use. I sincerely hope an expedient FAQ corrects what looks like a misprint/mistake.
I find the 25+ spell kinda silly. A fellow LD2 member pointed out that while it's next to impossible to cast with your own dice, casting it for free a la an opponent's miscast will happen with some regularity! :) That's assuming the Grey Seer actually does default one of his other spells to it, which may not often be the case...
The Bell/Plague thingys don't roll over to S7 like they used to. A (very) lucky cannon can still destroy it, but it's not like a chariot anymore.
Not Surprised
Army breakdown in the storm
Your own post Derek, but totally belongs here:
Wood Elves and High Elves get shut out in two phases but also:
Dark Elves: for pretty much the same reasons as the other Elves.
Lizardmen: blowpipes will never, ever get poison, and will hit on 7-8's most of the time! Razordons are jacked. Javelins are just about the only thing that can do anything, and then only on 6's! Rapes Terradons too.
Empire: Cuts their shooting phase literally in half. More so if they play handguners/crossbows and/or Outriders.
Dwarves: Makes Thunderers and Quarrelers next to useless, though most of their artillery is fine (notable exceptions include Organ Guns and Gyrocopters).
Ogres: Leadbelchers totally gacked.
Orcs and Goblins: One of the few advantages they have these days against the rampant Terror in the environment is their cheap Spear Chukkas... which become useless. This is actually a pretty big deal for a Greenskin player.
Bretonnians: Peasant archers become useless, pegasus knights get stuck on the ground (still costing the same as Blood Knights of course), and the trebuchet can only shoot 50% of the time.
Really, the only armies it doesn't fuck are Vampire Counts (unless you pack a Zombie Dragon and lots of Fell Bats), Daemons of Chaos (unless it's a flying circus), Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, and other Skaven. With the notable exception of Beastmen, these armies are already over-represented in the tourney scene.
hmmm
i do have a bunch of random skaven models somwhere....