Double Team Siren Song
I heard about this trick being run in Texas during one of the 'Ardboyz semifinals.
It is simple to do, requires no dice, and ridiculously underhanded and cheesy. So how does it work you ask? Like this:
Kit out two heralds of Slaanesh with Siren Song, keep the heralds at some distance apart. If they can both be charged by a single unit at the same time, the trick doesn't work. Now target the song on a single unit... both heralds singing at the same time, and BAM! Watch the unit flee.
Wha, wha, what? Yeah. You see, the target unit can charge one of the the sirens but not both, and according to Siren Song, if the target unit cannot charge the demon, well, tough luck, it needs to flee.
You figure out how best to abuse the flee. As a guy who currently runs Bretonnians, with my lord fleeing 3D6, this ttick scares the crap outta me.
Siren Song
(One Use Only)
This gift is used once during the enemy turn, before charges are declared. Nominate one enemy within 20" of the Daemon--this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules. The target unit must either declare a charge against the Daemon (or the unit it is with) or immediately flee, exactly as if it had failed a Panic test.
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Comments
I don't think so
I heard about this trick too, and I'm not certain it works. Siren Song does specify it can only be used on a unit which is "able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules". Normal Warhammer rules don't allow you to declare a charge on 2 units at once, with the specific exception of overlapping units resultant from maximizing models.
"Normal Warhammer rules" most especially don't allow a single unit to charge 2 enemy units which are far apart from one another. Since the unit being targeted by 2 Siren Songs can't charge both units under "normal Warhammer rules" then the Siren Songs would do nothing, as per their own rules text. One might argue that only one of the Siren Song effects fizzles for this reason... either way, the trick doesn't work. No?
Derek
Each song is a separate and
Each song is a separate and legal charge per the rules.
The cheese comes from the combined songs, no breaking of any rules whatsoever.
Consider Target A, Siren 1 and Siren 2.
Siren 1 sings at Target A. A valid charge is possible.
Siren 2 sings at Target A. A valid charge is possible.
Everything is legit and normal. That what the Siren Song rules say needs to happen, and it is.
And then comes the fun part. Target A has two totally valid charge options. Song or no song they are still valid charge options. All the "normal" rules are still legit. Nothing has changed.
Only because the of double songs, a catch-22 has developed. No normal rules broken, cathc-22 on who to charge and who not to charge, and unless you can charge both at once, one of the siren songs will cause a flee.
I still don't think so
I don't see any room for a catch 22, 23 or 24. To use your nomenclature:
Siren 1 sings at Target A. A valid charge is (currently) possible.
Siren 2 sings at Target A***. A valid charge is (currently) possible. ***you put "Target B" in your post. I think you meant "Target A".
A declares a charge at Siren 1. THIS HAPPENS BEFORE THE FLEE REQUIREMENT OF SIREN 2.
Siren 2 has no effect on target A (now) because "normal Warhammer rules" dictate A can't charge 2 units at once.
At the time target A would have to flee from Siren 2, Siren 2 is already null by it's own rules text. Why should the flee requirement of Siren Song 2 happen before A declares a charge on Siren Song 1? The rules for Siren Song don't say anything about that. They DO say Siren Song doesn't have any effect on a unit that couldn't normally declare a legal charge on the Siren in question. At the time unit A would be required to flee from Siren 2, it's already charging Siren Song 1, and therefore couldn't (under "normal Warhammer rules") declare said charge. Therefore, Siren Song 2 does nothing. Key point being, it's still used, and active, until target A declares a charge on Siren 1.
Derek
What normal rule are you refering to?
Siren 2 says either she gets a charged declared or she doesn't. By chosing to charge Siren 1, you have chosen not to charge Siren 2... and the Siren Song flee goes into effect if a valid charge does not happen.
Siren Songs are "cast" before any charges are declared. Says so in their description. Both of them are cast at the same time, again, before charges are declared. There is no "already charging". Charges cannot be declared until all songs have been "cast".
The one that says you can't charge 2 units with 1
Cheese hat
If Derek's explanation were correct, it would be possible to avoid siren song by declaring a charge at any other target. I however doubt that this abuse was the intention of the authors of the DoC book, and perhaps we should rule at QCR that attempts at such abuse get you a cheese hat.. http://www.cheesehead.com/products.asp_Q_catid_E_4 that if removed allows your opponent to place it anywhere on the board as impassable terrain.
Still, still don't think so
Cheese hat idea = awesome. However, gotta disagree with your counter argument, Colonel.
If a single Siren Song is used on a unit and they choose to declare a charge on another unit, this wouldn't protect them from the flee effect because under the "normal rules" for charging in the BRB, they COULD charge the Siren Song unit. They just decided not to. Therefore, they flee.
When 2 Siren Songs are used on the same unit, they CAN'T charge one of them. Therefore, the second Siren Song would fail, because "this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules".
Key point being that a unit affected by only a single Siren Song IS "ABLE" to charge the single Siren (regardless of whom they chose to charge during charge declaration) where a unit affected by 2 Songs clearly ISN'T "ABLE" to charge one of them come charge declarations.
Verdad?
Derek
No verdad
When 2 songs are on the same unit, they CAN indeed charge either of them. It is up to them to pick one... just like in Sander's scenario.
If they choose not to pick one of the sirens, then, uh-oh, they run.
The result of their choice has nothing to do with weather that can declare a charge or not. The result only occurs after their charges have been declared.
Si Verdad
Sigh
The siren is not a normal warhammer rule. Please stop using it as such in your argument when considering, "Was it possible, under the normal warhammer rules, to charge the Siren in question?"
The answer is yes. Yes, it is possible under the normal rules to charge the Siren. It is only not possible if you bring in the special (not normal) Siren Song rule.
Sigh back!
Burritos, you posted the text of Siren Song in your original article yourself, didn't you? The Siren Song description itself references "normal warhammer rules" right? Referencing the power text is hardly irrelevant! The power text says: Siren Song does X unless Y. It can't do X if Y applies. In this case, X = fleeing, Y = not being able to charge under the normal warhammer rules that govern charging.
"Please stop using it as such in your argument" If by "it" you mean the Siren Song's power description, that's saying "stop using the rules in your argument"... I admit, if I have to do such, I can't make an argument!
Derek
No no no
Normal means the Song has no bearing on the charge itself. Is the target a valid charge target yes or no? If so, then cool beans. If no, then no worries, but say two sirens are sitting 6" away from you, both in your charge arc, then yes indeed, they are both legal charge targets.
Nobody is fleeing anything as you decide to charge. Only after all legal charges have been declared (or have not as the case may be) does the Siren Song 'if no charge then flee' effect come into play.
I'm not saying to stop using the Siren Song text in your argument. I'm saying you should stop confusing its very special rules with the "normal warhammer rules" as they are very different things.
Yes, Yes, Yes
And again, I'm not saying either Siren wouldn't be a possible charge target. Indeed, both are. I'm saying that's immaterial, because it's impossible to charge 2 units 6" apart, as you put it. The power description says the target must be able to charge as normal warhammer charge rules dictate, and normal warhammer rules say you can't declare a charge against 2 targets that aren't lined up right next to each other (and even then, only if maximizing models on the first charge causes you to hit the second unit). It's a totally relevant distinction.
You seem to be focusing on whether or not both Sirens are possible charge targets. They are. You could charge either one of them. However, the description, at least as posted in your original article (which I assume is verbatim), doesn't say that's what counts. It doesn't just say something along the lines of "the Siren Song character/unit must be a possible charge target at the time the use of Siren Song is announced". It says "this unit must be able to charge according to the normal Warhammer rules". Clearly, as per the RBR, it's illegal to declare a charge on both Sirens, and I'm saying this breaks the normal charge rules as referenced in the power description itself.
Things seem to be getting a little heated though, so I'll stop, resigning myself to the fact that this discussion is, in all likelihood, wholly academic.
Derek
Ohhh
I vote for the cheese crown!
...
Don't take Deathstars?